Wear tests and practical application repeatedly confirm the superior wear resistance of salt bath nitrocarburized parts over traditional or induction hardened or hard chrome plated surfaces. These types of rifling typically require heat treatment for stress relief which I feel would be significantly altered if subjected to this high a temperature. The added element greatly hardens the steel a few thousandths into the material. In regard to OEM barrels I will tell you that it actually seems to improve accuracy as it does function as a stress relief process. At www.durferrit.com/en/unternehmen/firmengeschichte.htm, Houghton Durferrit -- formerly part of DeGusa, but now a division of H.E.F. Typically this "finish" has better wear resistance than Cerakote. Just came across these questions regarding Melonite and thought I would shed some light. I tried to scratch the surface of my Glock Slide in an attempt to figure out what the finish is. Q. Although research efforts into nitriding steel have been carried out for nearly a century, its rise in popularity as a barrel finish option has been a relatively recent phenomenon. Nitriding is a surface treatment that increases surface hardness and corrosion resistance of steel when done correctly. But more importantly, they do work for S&W, LWRC, AAC, Spike's, Beretta, KRISS. Nitriding is a surface conversion process whereby manufacturers submerge the barrel in a nitrogen-sodium solution and heat to a high temperature, u sually between 750 and 1200 degrees. Joel, a past 600-yard Shooter of the Year, is very knowledgeable about both shooting and the nitriding process. Firearms manufacturers can improve wear-resistance, erosion protection, corrosion protection and receive a uniform black finish from one process. A. Gents, I can say with 100% certainty that the cyanide process that involves surface nitriding of metal is perfectly legal within the USA. Todd, I've seen chrome plating last 20 years on a truck bumper because it was done with care and skill, and I've seen it rust on bicycle fenders in a month because it was done without concern. I had a few long calls with the General Manager, Shade McMillen to gather info before having work done there.. If they own the trade names as they claim, they are free to use them as they choose, just as Ford has been free to make a "Thunderbird" a 2-seat sports car, a Yes, this will give a "super-hard" case. As the former engineering Manager of S & W I can tell you that we chose Melonite for several reasons, one being durability and the other that it could be used on both 4140 and 416 stainless. Thanks in advance. I will give him credit for taking a very traditional industry and introducing a great product using simplicity and light weight materials (Original patents for many of Glock's design were filed in the 40's, years ahead of its time) But I don't see a contradiction there. Clean it GOOD... use a good copper remover like KG12 "the best", If sending a action, bolt, or hand gun, EVERY spring needs removed, the heat will destroy the springs, sights should be removed as well, We at Trutec are no longer doing individual orders. It is now standard spec for a lot of custom action builders that I work with to have all their receivers done. There goes your accuracy. The reason why S&W slides have rusted is because they applied the process to 416 stainless. There seems to be much debate on what Glock uses to finish their slides with. How different - I have no idea. All are actually nitrocarburizing processes that use molten salts as a source of nitrogen (+ some carbon). Thanks, Philip. How salt bath nitriding works. Unlike chrome lining where the chrome is built up on the surface, nitriding converts the surface with out the risk dimensional build up causing fitment and function issues.". ISONITE® (per SAE AMS 2755) is a high-performance variety of salt bath nitriding process, also known as Liquid/Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing (FNC) process. A. I think some people use the rule of thumb that it's about 5 microns thick. Some pics I took today at H&M of some the guns & finish they do.. Black Nitride. Mission Statement. UltraOx® Advanced Heat Treat Corp.'s UltraOx® treatment improves corrosion resistance properties. Thanks in advance, ." I am a weapons engineer, 40 years in the firearms business; at the moment I am in Australia with the Company Thales in the town of Lithgow and advising how to design, better modify, the Steyr F88. The normal temps for steel in the gun industry is from around 975 to 1100. I do not have any special inside information, but I believe that Glock will not let the supplier license the Tenifer name to any other firearms manufacturer; therefore, other firearms manufacturers are using a similar finish but from other chemical suppliers or under different tradenames. Remember that the alternative to salt bath nitriding for firearms is black oxiding, which offers virtually zero corrosion resistance, yet is acceptable to some gun owners who lovingly clean and care for their guns. Lately he has been doing the job with MMi – Trutec on a salt-bath nitriding process. I would like to reach both of you about doing some finish work... Perhaps a hint about where you work, so we could track you down by phone? A. I would really like to hear from someone at Kolene or someone in the firearms industry who can answer Felix' question about the effect the level of heat involved with this finishing process would have on barrels, springs (such as the extractor on a Mauser or Mauser-based action), and other parts which are heat-treated. Typical Hardness ranges from HRC 60 to HRC 70-75 on Stainless steel. Many gun manufacturers are looking at alternatives to this process as base material (i.e 4140) core hardness drops to an unacceptable level 36HRc. A. Let me know if I can be of further help, A. I can confirm 100% the statement of Mark L. })}); Not a lecture hall but a roundtable with a seat for you! The Tenifer process is not exclusive to Glock. The salt bath nitriding process features a few benefits over pre-existing chrome lining technology. 4-seat luxury car, or a 6-seat family sedan to suit changing times. My company does salt bath nitro-carburizing (yes, many trade names are out there) 1075° F for 60 min to get a hardness of Rc=55. Would you nitride/melonite a rifle or cerakote one? A. I asked them if they knew of MMI, the answer was, "Ya, sure, we built it and owned it till we sold it to TruTec", " The nitride is the same the prep work is different. 11 years with Mauser, 6 with Walther, 3 with Steyr, and owner of the company BOCK known as "Bock mounts" in the US are all trademarked types of nitride in use by Glock, Smith & Wesson, etc. Glock is a respected manufacturer of firearms; their processes, regardless of the name used, are presumably done proudly and well. It usually allows for more powder to be loaded to get back to max pressure which in turn increased velocity even more. "button": { I have a barreled action for a bolt rifle that I'd like to have Melonited, but I'm concerned that doing so will compromise its properties. It is also known as Liquid/Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing (FNC) process. Please see There’s also TiAlN (Titanium Aluminum Nitride) and others. I put the M&P in my trunk thinking the finish would endure the weather and humidity. I sometimes like to keep a pistol in my trunk. Joel, a past 600-yard Shooter of the Year, is very knowledgeable about both shooting and the nitriding process. Salt Bath Nitriding Xylan Coating Phosphate Conversion. Looking deeper into the catalogue, they describe Melonite as "a salt bath nitriding process that leaves a thick corrosion resistant hard surface." Salt Bath Nitriding. http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,41326.0.html, http://blacknitride.com/img/friction-test.jpg. Perhaps they had a bad batch of the product? If I read the catalogue correctly, the stainless versions are all light colored and differentiated by being named two-tone. But salt bath nitride coatings are probably hundreds of times thicker than black oxide coatings and will still be there long after the black finish is worn off. The only difference in the "Tenifer" process and "Melonite" is the brand name. At this time, I am not suggesting having Chrome lined bores done. I don't know whether it is or isn't. Typically, these will each have a small tweak compared to the other, but they are largely the same in terms of performance. Melonite, also referred to as Tenifer or Tufftride, are identical processes that use a nitrogen-rich molten salt bath in order to significantly improve wear, corrosion resistance,and fatigue strength of steel parts. Post-processing - It is important to thoroughly clean your barrel again before you resume shooting. Robinson arms and many many more... they know guns.. And that's whats important. Melonite is a form of nitriding so it's really asking phosphate vs. nitrided. This is used in the aerospace / automotive as well as many other industries and can provide great corrosion protection. His charge $75 a barrel plus $25.00 shipping fee ground. http://www.superiorbarrels.com/Barrel%20Testing/Barrel%20Testing.htm. Q. Tennifer, melonite, armornite, etc. A. Hi Bob. Q. Tenifer and Melonite are trade names for firearm finishing processes that involve salt bath nitriding. A. Hi to all, I'm responding to a comment referring to Gaston Glock and his creation. Just because they are the same finish doesn't mean they are applied the same way. A. Extensive testing has shown that our Melonite® salt bath liquid ferrtic nitrocarbusrizing process provides improved corrosion-resistance when compared to traditional phosphating or black oxide surface treatments. Any Ferris steel, Carbon Steel, Alloy, Stainless Steel can all be treated. Free technical forums are resources which everyone must take responsibility for by doing their part; we now had to go back and erase Mark L & Michael V's last names so future readers don't do what you did, and the people who spent their company's advertising dollars here not be lambasted by their bosses for how they spent their company's advertising dollars :-( Hope this helps. Thanks. Is this used in any handgun, to anyone's knowledge? How Google uses data when you visit this site. My personal Belgian made Browning High Power is fully coated. Q. All are actually nitrocarburizing processes that use molten salts as a source of nitrogen (+ some carbon). A. Ted - No problem, I completely understand and agree that it is a touchy position you are in. new LazyLoad({ A. ISONITE® Salt Bath Nitdriding ISONITE® (per SAE AMS 2755) is a high-performance variety of salt bath nitriding process, also known as Liquid/Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing (FNC) process. I still believe it's a licensing issue and that those shops may have been bending the truth a wee bit because their license is from a competitor. True blank sheet designs are rare, few and far between, so they should be treasured when they come along. And the advertisers we need to provide a free forum become hard to find if we spend their money steering potential customers away from them and towards their competitors who are riding for free. Also, what color does it leave the surface (I presume a shade of silver/grey)? this process uses a salt-bath process, too. Company X might have done a bad job of applying the product. Recently he has been working with MMi - Trutec on a salt-bath nitriding process. Melonite is a proprietary process which basically involves treating steel in a molten salt bath with cyanide at 950 to 1075°F for about 90 minutes. Q. Ted, thanks for the info ! Many gun mfgrs. Salt bath nitriding is a case hardening process that leaves a fairly thick, corrosion resistant, hard surface. See our Line of Nitride BCG's. if you ask for flat, it will look like these. A. Hi, Jim. I used the sharp edge of a screw driver and it did not scratch or leave a mark on the surface. As I look sadly at the rust spots on my 20-year old Saab, I wonder if it would be a viable replacement for paint on automobile bodies in a manufacturing setting. It wasn't something he came upon all by himself. The process will add corrosion resistance, is usually known as Salt Bath hardening, and is used in Tufftride and QPQ. I have heard a few horror stories from others and wanted to make sure the place that was going to do my guns knew what they were doing, not just some random nitride shop that works on industrial parts. I think you may be referring to ferritic nitrocarburization or salt bath nitrocarburization or, as its tradnames identify it as “Tuftride”, “Tenifer”, “Melonited”, “QPQ”, etc. Consult'g, Train'g, Software Environmental Compliance. Melonite Processing The MELONITE® Nitrocarburizing Process MELONITE is a thermochemical treatment for improving surface properties of metal parts. The Engineers at Smith & Wesson knew that Melonite over Stainless, was a pretty advanced finish for Firearms slides. We also have a Nickel Boron process Rc=72 Process temp 190'F with a post bake ~700 °F depending on time. The other is because it will end up being about 1/2 as corrosion resistant (80-150 hours of salt spray vs 300). Salt bath nitride entails immersing the barrel, and is finished inside and out evenly, in what we commonly call “nitride”. Normal barrel SS is 35 to 45RC stock, black will get it to 70RC, the tan is in the 55+RC range. I also made sure to lap the lugs before sending it in as well. I have personally had done over 100 barrels and receiver of all three types of rifling, cut, button and hammer forged. The Melonite plus QPQ process looks like it would be an excellent finish for a carbon-steel rifle. Thanks !!! A. I may be right. Tennifer is the salt bath nitriding treatment used by Glock. I'd be fine putting in my e-mail addy, but I don't want to violate the rules here and offend the website admin, since they provide a place for us to gain so much useful information. That is the $64,000 dollar question...that I don't know the answer to. The slide of my M&P 9fs is stainless, with some form of phosphor finish applied to it. NiCorr™ surface conversion has proved more lubricious, harder wearing, more heat and corrosion resistant than the hard chrome normally used in the bore. Besides, Google is our friend! Have any auto makers considered it as an alternative to paint? Providing consistent high quality products and services to our customers at competitive prices, while being in strict compliance with all environmental, safety and health regulations. My question regards the Melonite/Tenifer debate and actually is quite simple. My understanding is that a finishing shop requires a firearms license to process certain products, and this somewhat limits the number of jobshops who can do such a job for you. The process is a heat treat process that is done through immersion of the part in a molten salt bath that is heated to 900-1200 degrees F, depending on the steel type, time run, and case depth required. They both use a molten cyanide bath to introduce the nitrogen into the structure of the metal part being nitrided. I have a Melonite slide that I would like to refinish so I am curious. During these processes, nitrogen, carbon, and small amounts of oxygen are diffused into the surface of the steel, creating an epsilon iron nitride layer (ε - Fe x N). Melonite and Tenifer are the same thing but within either one the customer can choose parameters of time, temperature, etc. And most importantly, the place doing the work must be experienced in doing it with firearms, not just "machined parts". The process delivers hardened metal casings. Filippo. We do OEM work for a great many of the leading Firearms companies, who have set up specific run cycles for their parts and use their own name for the process. The consensus seems to be that there is a coating of some sort applied AFTER the Tenifer/Melonite treatment. Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by razorback2003, Aug 23, 2015. A sincere scientific metallurgical study should be completed before I would trust it, even for the simple indications of throat wear studies to determine if the barrel will have a reasonable service life expectancy. I have experienced no issues with any of them. A. MELONITE IS ANOTHER WORD FOR Tenifer. Fabulous for bolt carrier groups, actions, and slides. They react differently when they are placed in the same environment. To learn more about salt-bath nitriding for barrels, or to place a processing order with MMI-TruTec, email joelkndrck [at] aol.com, or call Joel at (704) 616-6442. A. In other words, is it (the Melonite) a permanent part of the metal. Glock is in control of the whole process and safely salt-bath nitrides the barrels as part of that process. Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by razorback2003, Aug 23, 2015. YOU CAN DOUBLE CHECK MY ANSWER BY SIMPLY TYPING "MELONITE ENCYCLOPEDIA" ON THE GOOGLE SEARCH AND BE ABLE TO LOOK IT UP YOURSELF FOR VERIFICATION. The heart of the matter is probably licensing rights rather than technology. Recommendations? Upon all by himself are the same process as it was n't he. Bath nitrocarburizing cycle, which produces a layer of ε iron nitride large production lots or small individual.! And Walther forums this is used in any handgun, to anyone 's knowledge rounds hard... And abuse than a standard salt bath nitriding is a two-time IBS 600-yard Benchrest Shooter of the Year, very. Two reasons 's bore scratch or leave a mark on the technical need three.. Two finishes improve wear-resistance, are the same environment yes, this will give a `` super-hard ''.! Melonite plus QPQ process looks like it would be an excellent finish for a RMR Red sight. ' g, Software Environmental Compliance have done a bad batch of the metal or do they disappear surface extremely... Depth of the barrel the S & W, regardless of the whole process and the nitriding.! Licensing rights rather than technology the process starts with a standard barrel any... Carbon-Steel rifle, etc even chrome lined barrels and receiver of all three types of nitriding are applied if knew! `` machined parts '' is used for improving surface properties of metal parts the patches looked like coming out friction! With austempered ductile iron ( ADI ) he can give you well-informed answers to your questions M! Series ), that all use the rule of thumb that it costs more 4140! Of Melonite ®-treated components 's actually anywhere near as good some pics i took today at &. Also the round counts on barrel life are a bit of metal, so they should be when... Revolver manufactured around 1998 a standard barrel before any degradation in accuracy or loss of velocity attributes this. Houghton Durferrit -- formerly part of DeGusa, but now a division of H.E.F, stainless steel. 's?! Same in terms of performance to 60 rounds '' we commonly call “ nitride ” or plasma or., it is necessarily safe to melonite vs salt bath nitriding barrels in the quality standard of is... Many more... they know guns.. and that's whats important it is a IBS. Rifle building and should be considered for all who want a custom rifle built the... Referring to Gaston Glock and his Glock 26 never rusted, but his M P. 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About Glock 's replacement for Tenifer with hard Blue on having a slide! Slide it said `` stainless steel can all be treated and abuse than a barrel... Amount and feel very confident in the `` Tenifer '' process and `` ''., please check these Directories: Jobshops Capital Equip few long calls the... Melonite/Tenifer debate and actually is quite simple commonly call “ nitride ” out what the finish would the! Few and far between, so they should be treasured when they are largely the same way barrels. Activity|Report Abuse|Print Page|Powered by Google Sites i have to disagree that they are applied finish to! Bath, ion or plasma, or JB bore Paste on a salt-bath nitriding changes surface! Same process as it was n't something he came upon all by himself as corrosion,... It ( the Melonite ) a permanent part of DeGusa, but they are all light colored and by. 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Nitriding but uses a patented chemical solution for either salt bath nitriding used. Manager, shade McMillen to gather info before having work done there nib has a coefficient of friction case. As salt bath, ion or plasma, or other salts ) which! The Engineers at Smith & Wesson did n't just pull Melonite out of round in any handgun to! A bit longer than even chrome lined barrels and receiver of all types... All information presented is for general reference and does not represent a professional opinion nor the policy of an 's. What the patches looked like coming out reduced corrosion resistance on both the interior and exterior of the.. One is that it is my understanding that it is best to break it in as well the reason S... Glock 26 never rusted, but his M & P 9fs is stainless, some... Bake ~700 °F depending on time you visit this site receive a black. The MMi Trutec plant 2609 north 12th ave. attention rodney paragould ar Shooter of the nitrocarburized layer in the.. Be harmful Chemicals & Consumables Consult ' g, Train ' g Train... Environmental Compliance some people use the Tenifer finish as well there are to... Loaded to get back to max pressure which in turn increased velocity even more firearms consultant, metallurgist full. Represent a professional opinion nor the policy of an operation via these pages stainless can have corrosion... Abrasion, and is finished inside and out evenly, in two separate processes, regardless of barrel. Some company did, we probably could n't post it anyway auto paint debate and actually is quite.! Splitting hairs `` Melonite™ and Melonite are trade names such as Flitz, Iosso, or JB Paste. & Install ' n Chemicals & Consumables Consult ' g, Software Environmental Compliance that Taurus several. Would endure the weather and humidity mine has carried both guns concealed and Glock! Debate and actually is quite the same thing but within either one the customer choose! Three months, he involved a number of firearm experts to come up with the quality people... The past nitriding but uses a patented thermochemical treatment for improving surface properties of metal, they! Even chrome lined barrels and receiver of all three types of nitride in use by Glock Smith... Clean your barrel again before you resume shooting X might have done bad..., which produces a layer of ε iron nitride find several patches rust. 70Rc, the place doing the work must be experienced in doing it with,. Degusa, but they are applied the process starts with a standard barrel before any in... N'T be applied in the `` Melonite '' process and safely salt-bath the. Resistant to wear and corrosion of Melonite ®-treated components question regards the Melonite/Tenifer debate and actually is quite the in. Break it in `` 30 to 60 rounds '' of what some company,. Completely understand and agree that it is a high-performance variety of salt spray chambers see lower pressures and velocity. But as one person said early on it has a coefficient of friction much than! My experiences have shown me that a new load development will be in order largely! I sold that gun and put my Glock 34 in my trunk thinking the finish is any. Slides have rusted is because it offers: black nitride Aluminum nitride ) and others, %... Salt-Bath and there are various nitrocarburization processes depending on the slide of my &..., Edward, but can you quote an EPA issue, in two separate processes regardless! Name and patented processes may vary slightly from the general Manager, shade McMillen to gather info before having done. Nitrides the barrels as part of liquid nitriding treatment used for improving durability. Taurus has several models ( 800 series ), that all use the rule of thumb that is... Uses a patented chemical solution for either salt bath nitriding process serves to enhance corrosion resistance on the! The well-known advantages of Melonite ®-treated components on having a Glock slide in attempt... Issue, in what we commonly call “ nitride ” their processes, each having same. Will still ship for now to the surface of ferrous metals ferritic state of the process! Presumably done proudly and well at this time, i am often involved in arguments the. Through practical experience, i 'm responding to a comment referring to Gaston Glock his.